Episode 91 - 3D Design Secrets Revealed: How JMAD’s Revolutionary Approach is Changing Architecture
Episode #91 | Angela Liesmaki and Rob Hull | JMAD | 3D Design Secrets Revealed
In this episode of "The Curious Builder," host Mark Williams chats with Rob Hull and Angela Liesmaki from JMAD about embracing technology and communication in architecture. They discuss the importance of using 3D models and VR to help clients visualize designs, balancing client desires with expert recommendations, and how their firm has adapted to remote work and nationwide projects. They also share personal insights, like Angela's creative endeavors and Rob's nature-inspired reading, highlighting the blend of personal and professional life in shaping unique home designs.
Listen to the full episode:
About James McNeal Architecture and Design
About Angela Liesmaki
Angela is a design professional with more than thirteen years of experience in commercial and residential architecture. Having worked on a variety of projects types ranging from office remodels, to custom homes, to international airports, she is captivated by inspirational, impactful and creative design. She thoroughly enjoys the process and collaborating with clients and team members to create a well-conceived design that expresses each client’s personality, fulfills their aspirations and enhances their daily lives.
Angela completed her undergraduate studies at St. Olaf College with a double major in Mathematics and Studio Art, and received her Master's in Architecture at the University of Minnesota College of Design. Her skills include conceptual design, visualization, hand drawing, 3D computer modeling and rendering
About Rob Hull
Robert is a design professional with backgrounds in both design and construction of custom residential homes of a wide variety of styles. He specializes in working in 3D for all aspects of the design phase, from the initial schematic design through the smallest details. Being able to virtually walk through the project before it is a reality helps clients to visualize their buildings inside and out from the outset of a project in a way that 2D drawings cannot. He also has a strong background in design, drafting, and architectural visualization/rendering.
Robert has received a Bachelor of Architecture degree for his undergraduate education and a Master of Architecture degree for his graduate education, both from the University of Minnesota Twin Cities. He is a native Minnesotan.
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Rob Hall [00:00:00]:
We don't really try to follow, make them fill out a form or do anything like that. We really just want to hear what they're trying to accomplish. And we're problem solvers, so we're taking in what they're trying to accomplish and what their site might present as options for them to build and kind of just combine that and tell them how we can help lead them to the ultimate goal that they're trying to get to.
Mark Williams [00:00:34]:
Today on the podcast, we had Angela and Rob from jmad Design on, and we just had a great conversation. It was really fun to talk about our collaboration at Honey Hill, as well as just get into the personal weeds of how they design, how the company was formed, how it operates, and how they really expanded across the country. So without further ado, here is jmad Design. Welcome to Curious Builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today we are joined with formerly James McNeil Architecture, now JMAD Architecture. And we have got Angela, is it Lies?
Angela Liesmaki [00:01:02]:
Maki, it's Lis Mackey, Lise Machi. Yeah, that's fun to say.
Mark Williams [00:01:06]:
And Rob hall, president of operations and the principal coordinator. So thank you very much for joining us today. And yeah, we've got to know you a little bit over the last couple of months. You guys are one of our architecture partners for Honey Hill, a development that we are doing out in Orono. So I want to bring you in, talk a little bit about that collaboration. Really, everyone in Minnesota knows who you guys are. You have a pretty robust following, and you guys are doing some really cool stuff in the industry. So why don't we start a little bit.
Mark Williams [00:01:32]:
Tell us about Jmad's history and Jim McNeil, the founder. His history? I was looking. He's got 40 years of experience, so he's been in. He's not a spring chicken here.
Angela Liesmaki [00:01:40]:
No.
Mark Williams [00:01:41]:
Why don't you tell us a little bit about the origin and how Jim started the company and kind of his path to what the company is today.
Rob Hall [00:01:47]:
Yeah, it's been a long, winding path, but Jim's had several companies over the years. He's had drafting services, he's had architecture offices, he's partnered with builders in the design build world. And that's all led to the JMAD office, where he felt like he was at a point where he could put his name on it and brought in the team. Angela and I have been with him since pretty much the beginning of jmad, and it's been a really good collaboration.
Mark Williams [00:02:14]:
Interesting. So to get that right. So he's got a journeyman's experience through the years. And then when he wanted to rebrand this, obviously, you guys, he had either worked with you before or knew you and said, hey, let's start this new company together. Tell me a little bit about that. I always think it's really interesting as we usually have the entrepreneurs on and as we talk about not only running a business, but continuing to evolve. What was about that point in time where Jim is, I want to form a team. And Looking back now, 11 years ago, what was that like for you guys at the time to say, yeah, what do we want?
Angela Liesmaki [00:02:48]:
I know Jim and Rob have known each other longer than I've known Jim. I've known Rob longer than. I'm no Jim, though. We went to school together at grad school, and so we stayed in touch after school. And Rob hooked me up with Jim when he was starting his new James McNeil, which is now J mad. And we clicked. And I just started working for Jim, like the next day.
Mark Williams [00:03:08]:
That's fine.
Angela Liesmaki [00:03:08]:
It's been fun. Yeah. And then Rob has pretty much been working with Jim since that same time. Let him tell his journey a little. It's a little different than mine.
Rob Hall [00:03:18]:
Yeah. Similar in that the hiring process for both of us was incredibly quick. I started the day of my interview, but.
Mark Williams [00:03:25]:
Oh, really?
Rob Hall [00:03:26]:
Yeah, I had to. Actually, I worked a couple hours and I had to leave to go quit my other job.
Mark Williams [00:03:30]:
But amazing. What did that interview. Obviously he knew he was going to hire you probably immediately when you walked in. Go back. That's just a really funny story. Walk us through that interview and how you ended up being starting work, like, literally right then and there.
Rob Hall [00:03:42]:
Yeah. Yeah. So that was at a time when the company was Charles Cut de Novo. Jim's previous company, De Novo, had merged with the builder Charles Cud. And so I went in and interviewed with them. They're looking for somebody to come in and help with drafting 3D modeling. And that was what, obviously I knew from school. And so they, I think, had it in their head they wanted somebody young, without a whole lot of experience and their own ways of doing things.
Rob Hall [00:04:07]:
So I came and I sat down with Jim and Chuck, and about half an hour later, I had a desk and was starting to draw.
Mark Williams [00:04:15]:
That's amazing. What? I just think it's so awesome that you just. Nope. When can you start? No, literally, you're starting right now. Like, we will get. We'll deal with the contract and paying you at a later date, but here just start going.
Rob Hall [00:04:28]:
Right.
Mark Williams [00:04:28]:
That's actually really funny. I actually Think it's refreshing. I think sometimes, you know, for those that are listening that don't own a business or are considering starting one, is that in this case your youth and inexperience was actually an asset. And I hear that over and over again that people want to. They're hiring based on culture, they're hiring based on fit and talent, not experience. Because in this case, like you already said Rob, that they wanted to you, they wanted you to help shape it, but they also didn't want necessarily bad habits either. So I think that's because that would have been what, 2013. Because right.
Mark Williams [00:05:01]:
11 years ago.
Rob Hall [00:05:02]:
So maybe 12.
Mark Williams [00:05:03]:
So coming right out of the recession.
Rob Hall [00:05:04]:
Yep. So exactly.
Mark Williams [00:05:05]:
Okay, super interesting. How about you, Angela? What was your path to I guess an hour after Rob starts drafting he was he texting you saying started the next day?
Angela Liesmaki [00:05:14]:
No, I was actually before I joined Jim, I was in commercial architecture and had been at a couple of companies and was ready to make that leap into residential. We still do some small commercial now but I was ready to get in the more creative aspect, designing, working really closely with clients and just super excited to meet Jim. And Rob connected me with Jim when he started this company and I just instantly was in love with it and excited to learn and yeah, I made that swap from one side to the other and haven't looked back.
Mark Williams [00:05:44]:
So did Jim have a few clients right out the gate where he's able to hire you or what did that look like in those early days? Because it seems like we've had a number of architects on now and a lot of their origin stories follow a similar path. Not even the builders. Right. You see a lot of project managers that work under a well known builder and then they get a client and then they break off and start their own company and then within a home or two they're building out a company based on kind of that one anchor tenant, if you will. It seems like architecture has a similar path where you'll see we've had architects on that worked with a whatever firm. It doesn't matter and then. But it often seems like they start in pairs and it's like someone is like we've had a number of. Actually we had.
Mark Williams [00:06:22]:
I think by the time this airs it'll be just a week or two before years because we're going to interview all our partners at Honey Hill. But so Chisel Marcy and Sarah, same deal. It's like they know each other. You guys knew each other. It seems like that's, that's fairly common in Architecture.
Rob Hall [00:06:34]:
Yeah, I agree. I think that is pretty much sums up the start of JMAD. I know obviously that goes back to the 40 years of experience in the industry and in the area. Jim had a deep bench of contacts and clients and there's a couple projects that he hit the ground running with when he started jmad, which is always.
Mark Williams [00:06:49]:
Obviously from the operations standpoint, it's pretty hard to just, okay, I'm gonna start hiring people and have no work that doesn't be like, congratulations, Rob, you're president of operations and financing, go get us some work, go get us some money. Because there's nothing in the account. I've always, I think it seems like most entrepreneurs are this way. Not all, but where I would prefer to have the work and then backfill the talent I need for it. I'm uncomfortable. I love this as I talk to bigger companies that obviously have a much bigger backlog where you could interview and train people and then. But you're now you're a big enough company that you can afford to do that. I feel like when you're small and scrappy, you need the work first.
Mark Williams [00:07:31]:
Would you agree with that?
Rob Hall [00:07:32]:
Yeah, I think that's the balancing act. The kind of scary thing about hiring is you don't want to over hire and not have work for folks, but you don't want to wait till you're so slammed that you can't find the right, have enough people to do the drawings.
Mark Williams [00:07:45]:
It's daunting too, like the training process. It's always that old adage to me. It's like you're either busy being busy or busy getting busy, but you're always busy.
Angela Liesmaki [00:07:53]:
Right.
Mark Williams [00:07:53]:
And you know that someone just had a great quote the other day that it really resonated with me, which is the time to work on the dock is when the tide is out. And however, when the tide is out, you're trying to get. You're trying to, in this analogy to work, we're trying to go get jobs, trying to go get boats in this analogy. And so that's always hard because you're like, is now the time to work on the dock? Is now the time to work on the business? Or is it now the time to, oh boy, we need to bring in this next boat into the dock here.
Angela Liesmaki [00:08:17]:
Right.
Mark Williams [00:08:17]:
Anyway, that's always a tough challenge. Walk us through. It's interesting what percentage of your work is in Minnesota versus outstate, because I see like you, especially on LinkedIn and social media, it seems in your style is very appealing. It seems like to the western states in particular. But I could be wrong in that because right now your license in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Colorado, Arizona and Montana, which is funny because the Florida's a little outlier there. But I assume we have so many people that go from Minnesota to Arizona, Florida. I'm suspecting that's where this is going. But tell me a little bit about your split structure and let's talk a little bit about how that expanded in the beginning.
Angela Liesmaki [00:08:54]:
Yeah, I think we. Sorry, I just played the question.
Mark Williams [00:08:59]:
Oh, just basically how much of your work is in Minnesota.
Angela Liesmaki [00:09:02]:
Oh, right.
Mark Williams [00:09:02]:
Versus outstate.
Angela Liesmaki [00:09:03]:
Yeah. I think at least when I was first working with Jim and Rob, we. A lot of our stuff was more so in Minnesota. But since 2020 hit and everything went virtual, we were like, we're online. We're all working from home. We're virtual. We're meeting people out of the state now. And all of a sudden people were finding us online more and more versus just meeting us at events in Minnesota.
Angela Liesmaki [00:09:24]:
And I think that's how our projects started spreading around the country. And just people weren't as scared anymore to just search online for an architect and work with someone remote because now we have the tools to actually work remotely.
Mark Williams [00:09:34]:
Well, and it's like the new norm. Right. It became, because it was a worldwide phenomenon essentially of doing business online. I think you were uniquely situated, just given how we'll talk a little bit later in the interview about just your advanced movement towards imagery and towards 3D modeling and the goggles. We'll talk all about that. And I feel like you are early adopters in that. So it seems like that accelerated your growth as you looked at your peers. Would you agree with that assessment?
Angela Liesmaki [00:10:04]:
Yeah, I think so.
Rob Hall [00:10:05]:
Yeah. I would. I would say it was an intentional decision to try to expand our footprint geographically, to work all over, both for just more opportunities, but also more. Some different opportunities, more keep it interesting for us. And so it was intentional thing that we started marketing outside of the state and getting those clients.
Mark Williams [00:10:25]:
What is your split like today, would you say?
Rob Hall [00:10:27]:
I would say 65 to 70% is still in Minnesota and then the rest is out of state.
Mark Williams [00:10:33]:
Okay, that makes sense. And is that about the right dynamic? I know you can't really pick. Right. It's a little bit like new homes and remodeling. This year I'm probably 60 or 70% remodel and 30% new homes, but last year I was 70% new. It changes a lot. Do you find that sort of ebbs and flows or not really is A pretty constant for you.
Rob Hall [00:10:52]:
I guess it's been about where it's at now for, for a while and that feels like a good balance. Obviously construction administration is harder out of state, but about beyond that we can provide the same service for our clients out of state as we can for our clients in state.
Mark Williams [00:11:05]:
And would you. How often are you traveling to the sites for the CA work?
Rob Hall [00:11:09]:
Certainly to visit the site before the project starts, like to see it with our own eyes and photograph it, learn about the site and before we start any design work. And then once the project's under construction, probably two to three times we'll visit it during the process.
Mark Williams [00:11:23]:
Now do you all have to fight on who gets to go? Like I see the pictures in Montana. Wait, I want to go during the ski season and oh you know what, there's a big storm front coming and I really need to, I really need, need to do a site visit. I don't know, Big sky, maybe like March, second week of March.
Rob Hall [00:11:37]:
I think there's something to that. For whatever it's worth, I always seem to have to go to Arizona in July. So that's not the best.
Mark Williams [00:11:43]:
No, that's not the best. That's pretty funny.
Angela Liesmaki [00:11:45]:
Now generally it's just whichever projects we're on we go to. Rob and I don't typically ever work on the same project together. We collaborate a lot but I have mine and he has his that we're working on.
Mark Williams [00:11:55]:
How big is the company in terms of people?
Rob Hall [00:11:58]:
About 12 right now.
Mark Williams [00:11:59]:
Wow, that's big.
Rob Hall [00:12:00]:
Yeah, we've got our design team and then drafting, marketing and we have folks who just do the renderings for us too.
Mark Williams [00:12:08]:
In your handling the day to day operations or what's your. How often are you from when. We will keep the beginning part of the podcast more about operational stuff and towards the end we'll talk about design and kind of the fun fluffy stuff which I really like. But operating the team I'm always, especially with a team of that size and you're all remote, you don't have. How do you promote culture? How do you keep regular touch points? Walk us a little bit through how you run a team remotely.
Rob Hall [00:12:31]:
Yeah, I think for us it's all about communication and basically just learning what our teammates preferences are and how they work. And so some people will work with and almost exclusively talk via email or chat on the computer. Some people just work best by giving them a call on the phone. And so we respond to what our employees work styles are and with the different technologies here we haven't had any problem either jumping on a zoom call to talk about a drawing quick. And we can mark it up while we're looking at it together and just using the different options that are available for communication.
Mark Williams [00:13:09]:
And would you say that in terms of, like, whether it's your culture calendar or keeping the entire team in lockstep, does that fall under both of you collectively? Is that more one than another? I'm curious. Like, for instance, like, operations meeting. It seems like a lot of building companies, like, we have our OPS meeting every Monday and that's like our sacred time. And so from to two, like, that will not move unless I move it. But anyway, the point is, like, that's where we touch base. And I used to have it on Tuesdays or Wednesdays, but I sort of like it in the beginning of the week because it sets up your whole week. And it seems as I talked to other builders, some builders do it first thing on Monday morning, like it's their first thing. I always wanted to leave enough space so that if there's any fires burning, whatever.
Mark Williams [00:13:50]:
How do you guys handle your sort of operational meetings? Do you have a group chat where it's like a set time?
Angela Liesmaki [00:13:55]:
Yeah, we do. Every Monday, 9am 9am We've got our office meeting, which includes Rob and myself, Jim, and then our HR and also social media.
Mark Williams [00:14:04]:
Okay.
Angela Liesmaki [00:14:05]:
And so we collect and talk about projects, talk about what everyone's working on, who we need to communicate with during the week so that we can. Or on Monday to make sure everybody's on the right track, get updates from social media on how we're doing and.
Mark Williams [00:14:18]:
What will it be? The whole team, or is it. How many people are on this call?
Angela Liesmaki [00:14:21]:
Just five of us.
Mark Williams [00:14:22]:
So would you call that more your leadership team then? Yeah. And are you? I'm just more curious how I like to see how things are laid out. Do you have, like, a template? Do you follow like a. Like, what is your path?
Rob Hall [00:14:34]:
Like, from an operation standpoint, it's mostly done by project. So there'll be a team on a given project. If it's a project that Angela's the principal designer on, she steers the ship on it, directs the team that she's working with for drafting, for rendering, for marketing, all of that. And then if it's a project that I'm the principal designer on, same thing. Just break it down per project, put the team on it, and let them run.
Mark Williams [00:15:11]:
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Mark Williams [00:16:20]:
We use wood windows and doors on every single one of our homes, and 98% of every home that I've ever built has been a Pella window. I've gotten to know their team here locally as well as nationally, and the way that they support us as a craftsman as well as they support our homeowners with their lifelong guarantee, it's actually been a game changer for me. So when people ask me who I recommend Pella. If you want to hear more about Pella Story, you can listen to episode one where I interview Peter and Ed from Pela Northland about their journey into the Pella ownership From a sales standpoint. I you guys have a showroom which is unique setting in IMs. For those that aren't familiar with Minnesota, it's International Market Square. This central hub of all these amazing design firms, architecture firms, vendor partners. It's just a unique.
Mark Williams [00:17:05]:
I don't know what other Just real quick in other states. Do other states have something? Is it very common that there's an International Market Square like this giant hub of.
Angela Liesmaki [00:17:15]:
I know there's some, but I don't know if every state tends to have that.
Mark Williams [00:17:20]:
Yeah, I just think it's really unique and it's a really valuable resource. How long have you been at IMS with your office space there since 20.
Angela Liesmaki [00:17:27]:
20 or 20.
Mark Williams [00:17:28]:
So it's pretty recent for the last four years. And it's funny because for those listening are like, hey, they just said they didn't have an office. It's more of a showroom. So it's interesting. What I was impressed is. And maybe we'll go. I will go into it now because I keep hinting at it. We'll go back to sales later.
Mark Williams [00:17:41]:
It just. We'll talk a little bit about. You guys are really known for virtual reality tours, or at least that's what I feel like you're known for. Really well, other than great design and amazing people is. But, like, you walk into the space, and it's this big, open floor plan. You're like, where is everyone? Where's the desk? It's very. At first, you're like, is anybody here? Did they just move in? I'm sure you get that a lot. So you've got, obviously beautiful photos on both sides.
Mark Williams [00:18:02]:
So think of this for those listening. This is a giant, like, rectangle room, probably, what, 24ft wide by 60ft deep, roughly. That's how I design. And. And. And then you have a little office in the back, but really it's set up for a conference room in the back where you would meet with clients. You'd show them the plans, but then Rob will get the screen on his face, and he says, do you want to see the plan or do you want to walk the plan? And then you'll put, obviously, Oculus Rift or whatever headset goggles you guys are into, and then people can walk around their home while you're talking to them. Is that.
Angela Liesmaki [00:18:32]:
Exactly. Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:18:33]:
And walk us through, obviously, the early adoption of that, where it's at today and what your clients are saying about it.
Rob Hall [00:18:40]:
Yeah, it's super fun. And one of kind of the principles of our firm is to stay at the forefront of technology. So we're always researching and figuring out new and better ways to do things. And how I've always thought of VR is just the next step in the evolution of both design and presentation for our work. And so it started with a floor plan drawing, and then eventually it was 3D modeling on the computer. And then the next step is virtual reality, to actually walk in the space and get the real sense of scale and layout and understand literally every single detail of what your new home will be like. Which, obviously, our clients aren't usually used to reading floor plans. And so this is just letting them see the space, how the actual thing will be in 3D.
Mark Williams [00:19:27]:
What I really appreciate about it is you can also take this to the job site. Right. You could, you know, you could have a home that's just framed up or just subfloors on and they could be outside and remotely put on these goggles and say, oh, hey, what does this kitchen look like again? Which I think is a pretty unique tool.
Angela Liesmaki [00:19:44]:
Well, we definitely encourage our builders to have a VR headset on site for from the beginning of the construction all the way through. Because what's really helpful and what we've done at the office even before construction is having subcontractors out to walk the building with us in VR so that they can see, oh, this is how it's all coming together. And then to have that tool on the site as well is really valuable.
Mark Williams [00:20:06]:
Can you do slice images of the inside as well? So that when you. Let's say someone is bidding it, they can bid the interior elevations or like some sort of modeling without actually having on the headset.
Angela Liesmaki [00:20:19]:
You mean actually being in VR?
Mark Williams [00:20:21]:
No, not necessarily. But basically they can. They obviously you can get elevations at the inside. I'm sure you can take screenshots of where you're in there, that kind of thing. Is that typically. Because I assume not every single subcontractor is probably coming in to do a virtual walk before they bid it, because that'd be a lot.
Angela Liesmaki [00:20:35]:
Yeah.
Rob Hall [00:20:36]:
And we used to for years print off 3D views because we always have been working in 3D modeling before VR for years and years. What we would used to do is print off views of every wall of a room and once framing is done, go up and actually nail those to the wall in the house. And now if you can just have the VR headset out there, you can get so much more information than a still picture.
Mark Williams [00:21:01]:
Right. I mean, or a QR code. Now you can just put a little QR code everywhere you go when. And I imagine with you having remote clients, to your point, because these goggles are not crazy expensive, right? 600 bucks. Thousand bucks. How much are they?
Rob Hall [00:21:13]:
Like three to five?
Angela Liesmaki [00:21:14]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:21:14]:
So. And you've had some homeowners just buy them independently so they could do it at home, right?
Angela Liesmaki [00:21:18]:
Oh, yep.
Rob Hall [00:21:19]:
I would say 90 plus percent of our clients, after they try it for the first time with us, they go out and the next day probably get a headset and wow, you guys should.
Mark Williams [00:21:29]:
Get a brand deal with really should 90% conversion rate. That's pretty high. If you guys don't have a licensing agent, I think the curious builder might have to represent you guys. This is very lucrative. Okay. You mentioned being on the forefront, obviously, AI. Recently I was hosting a panel at a conference here in Minneapolis about AI and it was really fun to talk to a cto. John Walker from buildertrend was talking about we're users.
Mark Williams [00:21:53]:
He's actually working with teams to implement the AI and how to use it for our sakes. What are some things that a. You're using now internally and where do you see AI in terms of architecture? Because there's the operation sides which I mean chat. Most people at this point are using chat GPT for blog writing or creative outlines or even some of these questions. I actually typed in a couple of prompts and not even using them because I'd rather just have organic conversation. It helps for research and for outlining your thoughts. Maybe to the first part of this question. How are you using technology operationally in Insight architecture? And then the second part would be where do you see or how are you using in actual design operationally to.
Angela Liesmaki [00:22:38]:
Start with, I know we use it for note taking, which is really great because it helps keep a good list of what you discussed and what next steps are. And that's something that you can share with the whole team.
Mark Williams [00:22:49]:
Which program are you using?
Angela Liesmaki [00:22:50]:
That's just through zoom. So whatever the zoom. Okay, record.
Mark Williams [00:22:55]:
Yeah, yeah, because it'll summarize it for you too, right? I use otter.
Angela Liesmaki [00:22:58]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:22:58]:
And so that's what's really slick is even when you're not in the interview, if someone allows your. Your chat bot in, it'll record. I've had it before where I either spaced on a meeting or just couldn't make it. And it'll send me the 10 recap like, man, I can replace myself. I don't even need to be here. This is what tells you all the things you need to do. So yeah, that's. Yeah, I can see why.
Mark Williams [00:23:15]:
For a bigger team that's really helpful.
Rob Hall [00:23:17]:
Yeah, yeah, I don't. I guess in terms of the large language models like you mentioned, there's not anything too specific to the architecture field. I would say that we use it other than for meeting notes, for writing drafts. Research assistant, like you mentioned, where we've used it more specifically for architecture is in kind of the image generation capabilities. And I would say that it doesn't really feel super useful or super ready for primetime with where things are at currently from at least our own day to day operations. I will say what the most kind of magical use case we found for AI is taking a hand sketch Putting it into the software and instantly getting five different versions of that hand sketch as a photorealistic rendering.
Mark Williams [00:24:02]:
Really? That's kind of cool.
Angela Liesmaki [00:24:04]:
And recently, beyond that, you can take that 2D image and you can almost make it move so it looks like a slow video across a space, which is. That's pretty crazy.
Mark Williams [00:24:14]:
That's pretty wild. How. What program is that we use?
Rob Hall [00:24:18]:
Stable diffusion.
Mark Williams [00:24:19]:
Yeah.
Rob Hall [00:24:20]:
So all you do is you can upload an image. Jim is still a master with a pencil, and so he can whip out a sketch like no one's business. And then we'll scan it, upload it, and then you can put in a text prompt to go along with the image to describe what kind of, like, style or feel you want, if you want a particular time of day. And then just click Generate, and it'll give you however many different versions you requested. And you can control how creative it is versus how much it sticks to the original sketch.
Mark Williams [00:24:51]:
That's really clever. I think I've been listening to. Actually, it was this book called Impromptu. John Walker, the CTO of buildertrend, recommended. He's a huge AI proponent, and in the book, it was talking about how these are tools no different than chief architect, no different than 3D modeling, the. All of these things. I think sometimes people get concerned about artistry. But I love what you just said.
Mark Williams [00:25:10]:
Like, Jim is creating the architecture and then he's using the software to help interpret it a number of different ways. It almost be different. Like writing poetry and then say, write it in Japanese, Chinese, like, convert it to different languages to see what? I don't know if that's a great analogy or not.
Angela Liesmaki [00:25:23]:
No, I think so.
Rob Hall [00:25:24]:
We're not trying to relinquish our creative control to the software.
Mark Williams [00:25:28]:
Yeah. Do you think that it's going there? Do you think there'll be a point where I could say, hey, here's 10 homes that I like? Or I don't know why I'm picking 10. Let's pick five. Here's five home styles that I like. I want it to be four bedrooms, 5,000 square feet. I want it to cost. That'd be pretty cool. I want it to cost $2 million or whatever.
Mark Williams [00:25:46]:
Is there anything out there that can even remotely start putting that kind of stuff together? Or it's not there yet.
Rob Hall [00:25:51]:
I think there's the start of that. And I think, yes, that will get to that point, but I don't think it will be for a while.
Mark Williams [00:25:59]:
Okay. Yeah. Interesting. What other sort of technology advances are you seeing in architecture or Operations right now.
Rob Hall [00:26:07]:
There's always the computer software that we use, improvements, ways to show our work better. Take what used to be a crude 3D model and be able to present it in a meeting with a client as a photorealistic rendering. So they get the shade and shadow, they get the time of day. They can see how the sun will actually work across the building, where it is in the world.
Mark Williams [00:26:29]:
So I love is that kind of that circadian rhythm light segment where it's like, hey, at 6:00am it's here. And then it walks you through a day of light.
Angela Liesmaki [00:26:36]:
Right.
Mark Williams [00:26:36]:
I'm always a big fan of anything with natural light.
Angela Liesmaki [00:26:39]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:26:39]:
I was just walking a site last week with a couple, and I have this little app called Sunseeker. I think I paid $9 for it. I think it's the best app I've ever spent money on. I use it all the time, but just shows you the orientation of the sun and it'll walk you through the path while you're out there. But it'll also do summer solstice, winter solstice, so it tells you the different paths. And winter sun in our climate's always really nice. And if nothing else, it's a great wow effect. Ooh, okay, that's cool.
Mark Williams [00:27:03]:
So Anyway, it's worth $39. I don't know what it is.
Angela Liesmaki [00:27:07]:
No, I think that's a good point, though, because I think that kind of brings you into some of the sustainability aspects of designing, too. And we have quite a few clients who ask. I want to see how this. The sun's going to come through the building and how that affects our heating bill or our cooling bill or whatever. And I think it's another tool that we can provide the clients, which is great.
Mark Williams [00:27:26]:
Let's talk a little bit about. Let's go back to a question I was going to go down earlier, and then we'll talk into your. Your keys of service and your keys of design, which are how you I through design. Walk us through the sales process. Now you have a bigger team, and because you don't have a central office, how are you interacting with clients, especially if they're local? Obviously if they're remote, you're meeting them virtually. But even if you're meeting virtually, who's meeting them? Is it the two of you, one of you, three of you, 10 of you, how do you go through that process?
Rob Hall [00:27:51]:
Yeah, it's any combination of our kind of leadership team and who's available. And so we usually try to get at least a couple people to Meet with a new client so maybe one person can focus on steering the ship on the screen versus having a conversation or taking notes. And if it's yeah. An out of state client, we're meeting virtually. If it's in state, we'll probably be sitting down at our conference room and just. We just like to show what we do basically. And so we'll have on the screen in front of them some past projects, some current projects that so they can see what their process will be like when they're working with us, when you see design.
Mark Williams [00:28:29]:
So it's funny in my mind if people that are familiar with will know this but people that aren't will look it up. It's interesting. Like what the work that I've seen of James and the team, the J Mad team. Excuse me. I see I think of maybe more like some of the iconic ones that are very rustic but that's. You've done he does and you as a team do everything. You've got some European, you've got some chateau, some stone. How this is more of a broad question.
Mark Williams [00:28:54]:
How have you avoided being typecasted with a specific style but sometimes you're known for a style even though you do everything. Does that resonate with you a little bit like what people would maybe presume that you do?
Angela Liesmaki [00:29:08]:
Yeah, I think like to showcase that we do all kinds of architecture, all styles. We don't just specifically say we're only going to do this or only going to do that, but we enjoy the wide variety of architecture that we can do. And I think a lot of it how we've been able to really build up our name in that is we always tie our designs back to classical architecture and making sure with that in mind when we're designing our home becomes more timeless no matter what kind of style it is. And so I think that that speaks to our wide variety on our website.
Mark Williams [00:29:44]:
No, I think that's. I think that's really fair. It's interesting because I think you can be really niche and be specific but you can also be very broad and at the end of the day a big part of. Of my job it seems like in Minnesota anyway. I've talked about this ad nauseam on the podcast but you know, just our market with the parade of homes being 75 years old, we have a very strong builder and buyer relationship. More so than probably other states. We've had designers on from Texas is like oh no, they come to the designer first, you know, go out to la, they go to the architect first. And so it's like at the end of the day you need all three anyway.
Mark Williams [00:30:14]:
So it's just really about assembling the team and I feel like a big part of my job is the temperament of the people that we choose to partner with and maybe this is a great plug of why. So we're doing Honey Hill as with Tom and Sean from Aspect Design Build as well as Mark Williams Custom Homes, our other company. And we had looked at several companies. I had come in to interview with you and I've obviously known your work and been through it many times through different. Like Drew Heuler, obviously he's built a number of homes with you and I was in his home recently that he just sold. And so anyway, there's something about that personal connection that I really enjoy. And then you gravitate towards certain people. And also I think for Honey Hill I feel like we've been listening it as like where nature meets luxury.
Mark Williams [00:30:59]:
I feel like you can almost have that as James, you know, description. I mean it really is. I mean you've got. Yeah, it feels like you have a very biophilic vibe to your. A lot of your homes have a very, for lack of a better description, earthier, like organic feel to them. At least that's what I see when I see a lot of which appeals to me. I like that it feels tangible, it feels like you. You want to touch the things that you're putting on the home.
Mark Williams [00:31:20]:
And so anyway, it was interesting is when we were sit as a team, who do we want to be a part of this? Who represented you guys were one of the three that we selected. It was Christopher Strom, it was you guys and it was Chisel. And so that's been really enjoyable for me to have this multi team. We've got three architects, we've got two sets of builders. And I really like this team building approach in this sense I feel we're part of a team. Like we're collectively trying to get in a big part of it then is we want the client to come in. That resonates with all architects can do great work, but it's who do they connect with. And I think I know that's something that I value greatly.
Mark Williams [00:31:54]:
And so it's. I seem to be drawn towards people that are really warm and just people that you want to be around with. I don't know what you guys say to your clients, but I always tell this is like my number one line to my clients. If it's even a line, it's just truth. It's like, who do you want to spend the next two years of your life with? Because, you know, my design could take anywhere from three to seven months, depending on how big it is or how involved it is. And then the build process, again, depending on how big the homes is going to take anywhere from 10 months to two years. You know, for. Obviously, there's outliers in both scenarios there, but definitely.
Mark Williams [00:32:23]:
Anyway, yeah. And like at Honey Hill, when we had the harvest of what we had at that in, I think the second week of October, and, I mean, you couldn't have asked for a more perfect fall day. We had live music, a food truck. You know, we had you guys out there and that even, like, the barn that was out there for everyone to interview with, that was like, oh, man, I felt like it was in a postcard or a Hallmark movie. But anyway, just really, really awesome to have you guys there interacting. Had you ever done something quite like that before?
Rob Hall [00:32:51]:
Probably not something quite like that. In terms of having it be so outdoors and so interactive, I think you throw a good party.
Angela Liesmaki [00:32:59]:
Thank you.
Mark Williams [00:33:00]:
Thank you. Imagine what happens if we could build a house with you guys. But what I liked about it was, you know, going back to your headsets is we had. So for those listening, and that didn't go. There was this old barn that was on the property. We tore down the other buildings, but we kept this old barn that we can modify into a pool house or a playroom or sports facility or whatever people want to do with it. But down in the lower level, which is actually really cool and organic feeling, had all these essentially stables. I think they had donkeys and horses prior.
Mark Williams [00:33:29]:
And we cleaned it up, and Rob had. Yeah, thank you. Nobody had to step in any cow pies, but you had you. That room was perfectly set up for virtual reality. So we had all these people coming in, and it was really funny because some of my past clients, Mike and Lori, were there, and Lori was with the headset on, and I walked in, and my voice is very loud and very easily to recognize. And she obviously knew who I was right away. But I was telling. Of course, I was spoofing her, right? Oh, this virtual reality is amazing.
Mark Williams [00:33:56]:
And so I was having a good time with it. And of course, she couldn't see me. And so anyway, it's just such a fun time, but my kids were out there, and my daughter and my sons grabbed the VR set and they were like, of course, immediately like, dad, why don't we have these at home? But I just think it's really Neat that you can take that. We're literally outside in a field. In this case we're in a barn and you are walking through a multi million dollar home. So that was just really a fun, fun day. Let's talk a little bit about your. It's very clearly laid out on your website.
Mark Williams [00:34:24]:
Let's talk a little bit about how you design and how that might be unique and thoughtful. You have this keys of service which are sensitivity, consideration, creativity, inefficienc. Tell us a little bit about like why these things or how this resonates with the people that you're designing for.
Angela Liesmaki [00:34:41]:
I think for the Kiza surface, there's a reason it's number one, because the design is fun and exciting and we want to get to it. But before we can do any kind of design work, we have to understand our clients. And so that's why we have sensitivity, consideration, create then creativity. We want to make sure that they feel like they're being heard. Like what they are expecting out of the process and out of their design, it will actually come to fruition. So by talking to them, listening, showing them that we care about their future home is at the forefront of what we want to do when we meet with our clients.
Mark Williams [00:35:14]:
One, I like what you said, actually this just came up in a conversation yesterday. You know, I've been building for 20 years, but most of the clients we build for have never built before. Or maybe one sort of remodel or something building related in their life. Obviously it's easier if they have been through it. I mean they just get the program a little bit quicker. But I like what you said. We've done this before, but you might be new to the process, like making them feel comfortable. I think really showing empathy.
Angela Liesmaki [00:35:37]:
Right.
Mark Williams [00:35:38]:
And showing them. I think listening is probably, I mean I think it's just in general. You mentioned communication earlier, Rob, how you keep your team together. But honestly communication is the number one thing.
Angela Liesmaki [00:35:47]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:35:47]:
And you both are actually particularly good at. That's actually one of the reasons why we also chose you as a partner is just how great and kudos to you specifically Angela. You're like, you are on it.
Angela Liesmaki [00:35:59]:
Thank you.
Mark Williams [00:35:59]:
Which I trust me as an uber community communicator, like I. It relaxes me. I'm like, ah, yes, another fellow communicator. What when you are interviewing your clients or they're interviewing you, how are you doing it? Morally, organically, just listening to them. You've got your note taker listening or do you have like the intake form where it's more prescriptive. And how do you normally intake that information?
Rob Hall [00:36:21]:
It's pretty loose. We don't really try to follow, make them fill out a form or do anything like that. We really just want to hear what what they're trying to accomplish. And we're problem solvers. So we're taking in what they're trying to accomplish and what their site might present as options for them to build. And just combine that and tell them how we can help lead them to the ultimate goal that they're trying to get to.
Mark Williams [00:36:49]:
How often are you mentioned that you've got a 70, 30 split in state, out of state. What percentage of your total builds are coming already attached with a builder with it, or is the architect coming to you alone?
Rob Hall [00:37:03]:
I think it's pretty close to 50. 50.
Mark Williams [00:37:05]:
Okay.
Rob Hall [00:37:06]:
Sometimes the clients come right to us. Sometimes they'll go to the builder first. And we always say we like to get the whole team together as early as possible anyway. So ultimately it doesn't make a big difference from our end because if they come right to us, the first thing we want to do is get the builder involved too. So from the very first day of design, we have the whole team together and everybody can help with their expertise.
Mark Williams [00:37:29]:
And mainly it seems like we're meaning, I guess I'm representing builders in this analogy because I am one is a pricing. Right. I think the scenario often outlayed to the clients is just, you know, again, we say the same thing on the other side of the table. It's nice when everyone's consistent. Like we just want to assemble the team.
Angela Liesmaki [00:37:43]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:37:43]:
And really it's conveying to the team. And I do think the client gets a better. There's no question that they get a better. Not only better service, which goes back to your keys of service, but they get a better end result. Everyone is happier when the team is assembled on the front end. I never thought this analogy before. Be like, if you didn't do that, it's like showing up to your wedding and not knowing who you're going to marry. This idea.
Mark Williams [00:38:02]:
I know how my. Actually, this is a great analogy. Think about it. It'd be like designing your perfect wedding. Like designing curating the guest list, having all the food picked out. But then you show up and you're like, which husband do I think is going to make me the happiest for the next 30 years? Okay. Give me your bids, Give me your numbers. It's just straight, like you have to make this decision, like right now, like, everyone's going to want watch you get married.
Mark Williams [00:38:22]:
That's I'm going to use this analogy for sure again. But because like honestly but isn't it better to, you know, understand who your team is. But this happens a lot where you know and there's a place for it but you know, where people it seems like when there's either when it seems like when relationships break down, either hasn't been good communication from the builder and it could maybe not be heard by the client. It's not always going to be the builder's fault obviously. But it seems like if we come into a competitive bid situation where it's already been done, something broke like something went wrong or the price usually the price is so out of whack that they feel like the trust has been lost and so then they and then things are dicey from your point of view because you've obviously been a part of this. Is that how do homeowners and builders alike avoid that scenario happening?
Rob Hall [00:39:10]:
I think it can be as simple as just making sure you're sending a weekly email alerting the team of what we're work is going to be done for the week ahead and make sure everybody knows what's being done and what the expectations and deadlines are. And and then also having the builders in our design meetings too is I think a key.
Angela Liesmaki [00:39:30]:
There's a lot of times where we'll have a client meeting and the builder will be there and we're literally designing the home in the meeting. It's not like we're disappearing for a week and then saying hey, let's meet again and we're like literally putting together the home. It's almost like bubble diagramming before 3D and now we're just building it all in 3D in front of the client. That way the builder can help gauge let's maybe move in this direction.
Mark Williams [00:40:00]:
Lake Society Magazine is Minneapolis premier target market boutique lifestyle and design publication. It embodies the unique lifestyles and design of the Minneapolis City Lakes neighborhood. From Lake of the Isles to Lake Harriet, it showcases the best in local design projects by both premier builders architects and interior designers in this area. Lake Society Magazine has the look and feel of a national publication. With glossy covers, high end finishes. It's mailed directly to upper bracket single family homeowners in the City Lakes area and it's the perfect local coffee table top publication. Subscriptions can also be available through the website lakesocietymagazine. Additionally, publisher and founder Karen Steckel has over 27 years in the local Magazine publishing industry and has a passion for high end photography and quality graphics.
Mark Williams [00:40:47]:
Her commitment to quality, visual simplicity and beauty are strongly reflected in her beautiful Lake Society magazine.
Mark Williams [00:40:55]:
If we just design it and it never gets built, nobody's really happy. Honestly, nobody. You're not happy because it's paper. You could do that at any time. We're not happy because we didn't get to build it. Clients aren't happy because they don't get to live in it. It's a lose, lose scenario here. But I love that.
Mark Williams [00:41:10]:
One of the reasons why the homes always look different is each time, even if you have the same team, the homeowners are always different.
Angela Liesmaki [00:41:16]:
Right. Definitely.
Mark Williams [00:41:16]:
And so. And the site, I should say the site is a voice too. The site gives a huge voice to what the architecture is. Sometimes clients will come in Right. With a, an image of what they want or they'll say, hey, I want to walk out. It's just like a pancake lot. And you're like, I mean we can if you really want to, but anyway, you get the point.
Angela Liesmaki [00:41:33]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:41:33]:
Anything else you want to touch base on Keys of Service before we go to Keys of Design?
Angela Liesmaki [00:41:39]:
Maybe just to tie back to the first meeting. I think a big part of that first meeting too is getting either myself or Rob in that meeting. If we're the ones on the project so they can meet us and see if they.
Mark Williams [00:41:50]:
Yeah. Who are they connecting?
Angela Liesmaki [00:41:51]:
Enjoy. Yeah. Connecting with us and talking and feel like they're being heard.
Mark Williams [00:41:54]:
If they meet both. That's a good question. If you guys are both running, not that you don't collaborate obviously, but if you're both running separate teams, how do you know which client? Like if I'm interviewing with you, like how do I know who I'm building with?
Rob Hall [00:42:05]:
It depends. It. If it's obviously somebody we've worked with before or is recommendation from a different project we worked with, we try to keep that team together. If it's really just out of the blue, it could just be based on whose schedule is best aligned and. And then just having those people in the meetings from the get go.
Mark Williams [00:42:24]:
Yep. It makes sense.
Angela Liesmaki [00:42:26]:
Yeah. And again, a lot of the times we're collaborating, so it's. I like to think of us all as the same team. We're not separate, we're all working together.
Mark Williams [00:42:33]:
It's just whoever has taken the lead on it.
Angela Liesmaki [00:42:36]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:42:36]:
We have the same deal with the project manager. Right. They tend to know the client very, very well. We show up or like today we had our bi weekly site meeting so we had the architect there, I was there. But really the project manager is there multiple times a day. So they get to know Mike, excuse me, my pm way better than. Not that they don't know me, but at this point know it's like, I guess in this analogy it's like the doctor and the nurse. You see the nurse several times a day, the doctor might only round on you, you know, once a day kind of thing.
Mark Williams [00:43:03]:
So anyway, the keys of design, we have them listed out there. It's health, safety and welfare, design, intent, artistry and presentation. The first one was keys of service. You're really connecting with them, you're showing them your creativity, your sensitivity, how you communicate. The next step here, this keys of design. Walk me through what informs this and how you guys look at.
Rob Hall [00:43:24]:
Yeah, I think it starts from the really essence of architecture in terms of we're responsible for providing the health, safety and welfare of our clients. We're providing them with shelter and we're providing them with places where they do their daily tasks, cooking, eating, sleeping. And so making sure, first and foremost we're providing them a safe, functional space is certainly the first thing that we need to make sure we do. And then it has to function well as well. So we need to make sure we're listening to them, we're taking in, we're learning how they live because everybody might want something a little bit different orientation of parts based on what they've liked in the past or what they have seen on the Internet. And so the double edged sword.
Mark Williams [00:44:14]:
That's great. That's also really bad how cinders, you're talking about health and safety and it's funny because you'd have four walls and a roof and that is a, that's a tent. I went camping with my kids the other day and they were just as happy in the tent as they were in their bed. Now dad was not as comfortable on the ground as I am on a bed, but the point of it is I feel like in the higher end homes that we build and you design, I feel like we often. It's something I don't want to lose sight of. You're building a home for somebody, they're going to have their life memories here, their children like it's very impactful and I think I'll just speak for myself. I'm not going to speak for you. Sometimes I have lost sight of that because I get really caught up in the artistry, in the creativity and innovation I'm really excited about.
Mark Williams [00:44:56]:
And it's not that I guess I am caring about them and it probably is just maybe it's like breathing. I'm not thinking about it. So maybe that's there. But I like those pauses where you realize this is a home. That. And not only someone was on the podcast recently where we were talking about that the average American lives in their home home for 12 years. So it's actually very short compared to like in Europe. It's multi generational.
Mark Williams [00:45:15]:
They view homes a little bit differently, which would. But anyway, it's our cultural thing. But the point is, let's say these homes last a hundred years, 200 years, however long they last, you're going to have five, 10 families that have all these memories, all these. And while our client is the one that we're building for, sometimes I forget how long that home is going to be around informing memories and cherishable moments. How often does that. Do you guys think about that in those terms?
Angela Liesmaki [00:45:42]:
I. All the time.
Mark Williams [00:45:44]:
Good. Somebody's got me covered then.
Angela Liesmaki [00:45:47]:
No, sorry, Rob, go ahead.
Rob Hall [00:45:48]:
No, I was just going to say I think if we can through our design function, the health, safety, welfare, if we can elevate those kind of daily processes. To your point, you're elevating those memories throughout the years for everybody who comes through the house. And so if it's making sure we provide ample daylight so that people don't feel like they're enclosed and we're able to relate to nature and you're not shut off from your surroundings, I think that has a big opportunity to impact just daily life in a way that you don't always notice at the forefront of your mind.
Angela Liesmaki [00:46:25]:
I think too, helping our clients understand how they want to live next is really important because whether they were in a home they built before or just one they had purchased, I'm sure they have things they like and dislike about it. But. But to help them understand, as we're doing those 3D bubble diagrams, how do you want to live now and how will these space or these spaces relate to each other or not relate to each other or it's really important to always bring them back to that. Okay, how are you going to use this space and how do you want to have your dinner parties and how do you want to live in the kitchen? And just having all these different conversations about all the spaces I think brings them to a better sense of what they want in their future home versus different just living how they used to live in the previous one.
Mark Williams [00:47:07]:
Piggybacking that idea for yourself is you're challenging them to Think about the future, about what their lifestyle will be. How do we as or you as creators and all of us as an industry, how do you. Where do you think we are in pushing the boundaries of new things versus a lot of times people come to us because, oh, hey, Angela and Rob, you guys built this amazing house. I want something so it's. You're. You're recreating it new because nothing will ever be the same, but it's was inspired by something you've already done. And maybe it's, hey, everyone is 5 to 10% different. Very rarely do you have a client that's like completely.
Mark Williams [00:47:43]:
Everything's new. Like 90% is new and 10% is old. Like, that's just rarely happens. I think it's happened once in my career. And so I guess my point is how do we continue to. Because there's things that individually, Angela, you would be passionate about and Rob, you'd be passionate about. And we're trying to find connection with our homeowners and saying, well, what are you passionate about that I'm passionate about? About that we can jointly move this in maybe a new way or something different. Can you speak a little bit to that terrible question in terms of just, you know, how do we get our creativity? Because it's like, for me, maybe it's my adhd.
Mark Williams [00:48:14]:
Like, I always want to do something a little different. I think that's what appeals to me about building is because every home is different, because every client is different, every partner is different. Walk us through how you do that.
Rob Hall [00:48:23]:
I think there's a couple different responses to that. First, just as a philosophy, I think that our company embodies is taking incremental steps forward. We, like Angela mentioned earlier, we are always informed by history. And so we're starting even on a modern home. We're starting with some ideas from classical architecture. And so we're not trying to do something that's completely out there and unrelated to the history that has come before it, because there's a lot to be gained from that. And. But at that point, we still want to make sure we're moving forward in terms of how people are living today and make sure we're adapting to modern life and be that in kind of floor plans or what spaces people are looking for, that's where there's room for growth.
Angela Liesmaki [00:49:13]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:49:14]:
How about for yourself?
Angela Liesmaki [00:49:14]:
I think, like, I might have certain passions, like, I'm like, should it really be this way? But it's more so about what the client wants and it's our job to guide them. So if there's something that maybe we feel like you maybe want to double think how you're going to do this. Say for example. Just an example that comes to my mind just because I've been dealing with it a couple times lately, is the idea of a basement versus the idea of like main level living, walk out, entertainment space, trying to help. I feel like a lot of homes are moving in this direction of main level living, aging in place, entertainment on one level and not just going down to the basement for kind of your entertainment. And I think helping them understand how, if they're pushing the basement, try to help them understand how main level living could really be a route you want to look at. Because you got your kitchen, you don't have to do a second kitchen, you don't have to do a second bar, you don't have to do second living room. You're using these amazing spaces that we're creating on the main level.
Angela Liesmaki [00:50:07]:
And so just helping to guide them.
Mark Williams [00:50:09]:
And I think the fact that you build in other states, a lot of other states, I would imagine Arizona and Florida probably don't do a lot of basements, if any at all. And I think a lot of our Scandinavian descent here in Minnesota, right, You've got a lot of their whole root cellars. And that meant it's very rare not to have a basement in Minnesota, frankly. But part of it is our frost footings, right? I mean, I was explaining this question actually just Monday to a client, like, why do we do basements? And one of the main reasons is it's really inexpensive. I mean, it's easier to build up than it is to build out. Or it's not easier, it's less expensive traditionally. And so there's a cost function of it as well. And then our culture is very used to it.
Mark Williams [00:50:44]:
It's pretty unusual not to, but it's challenging a little bit. What is your lifestyle? What is it that you want? And of course, the site has to. If you're doing a lot of infill stuff we do, let's say 7% of what we're doing is tear down rebuilds. They tend to be on smaller lots. Not always going to have the availability to build as big as you want.
Angela Liesmaki [00:51:02]:
Right.
Mark Williams [00:51:02]:
Or as wide as you want. I had that question. Now I'm blanking on it here as we're coming into the to the end here. Where do you see. Oh, I know what excites you about what you do. Where do you see the next 10 years of J mad and what do you see as some of the next evolution in the steps?
Rob Hall [00:51:17]:
To me, the kind of a couple of the reasons to get into architecture is to be a problem solver, to solve problems for people in how they live their lives. And then also in our keys of service, the artistry aspect is important too. We look for any opportunity that we can be creative and that speaks to working in any different style. If a client loves real modern style, we can use our creativity tools to work and design them something really exciting in that way. Or it can be more rustic, it could be shingle style. And I think the breadth of projects is what's exciting to me.
Mark Williams [00:51:56]:
How about for yourself, Angela?
Angela Liesmaki [00:51:58]:
Yeah, I would agree with Rob. I think just continuing to get really exciting creative clients and projects and expanding our horizons for what we're doing and using technology to our benefit. It for helping clients understand their home is where I hope we keep pushing and striving towards that.
Mark Williams [00:52:17]:
I remember the question I was going to ask you. Have you ever had a client where you mentioned about how it's our job to inform them and help guide them, but we need to listen to them. Where you get a client that has a strong personality, they know what they want, so you give them what they want. And then they say, we really wish you would have shown us more things, or we wish we would have shown you more interesting things. And I remember looking and I'm thinking one in particular, thinking of this, of my designer. I'm like, they didn't want any of our advice. They didn't want. And now we're being criticized because we're being held to a weird double standard.
Mark Williams [00:52:49]:
Like we can't actually, we can't. In that moment, we can't show them all the things that they evidently expected us to do because they wanted everything that they wanted. Have you run into that before?
Angela Liesmaki [00:53:01]:
Yeah, I think trying to think of how to answer that. I feel like you definitely have some clients who really know what they want, want. And again, it's just, how can we take that into consideration but then guide them down not. Not to the dark side, as Jim said.
Rob Hall [00:53:16]:
And it's.
Mark Williams [00:53:17]:
And it's fine if they're self aware. I think the one I'm thinking of, they weren't self aware enough to realize that was their own criteria. And so it's like they're asking us to do something, but our hands are tied.
Rob Hall [00:53:25]:
Yeah. I think sometimes we have to remind ourselves that part of the reason they hired us is because we know what we're doing in terms of Design and we've been around the block and can help them. And it's then up to us to show them why that solution that we're proposing is the best one.
Mark Williams [00:53:42]:
Do you ever. Do you have a rule that, you know, I'll do it three times and then I'll do whatever you want. I've. I'll just phrase it like this. You know, if you want me to build you a purple house with white spots, like, I'll do it. But I'll probably tell you two or three times, like, that's a bad idea. But at the end of the day, like, if you really want to pay me to do that, I will do that for you. I'm not above doing what my client wants, but, you know, we're trying to guide them.
Mark Williams [00:54:02]:
It's a ridiculous example, which is why I use it. Do you have something like that where it's like you'll put push back a few times, but then I think that's where it seems like experience, you know, what is that? Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy. Like, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to get into an adversary relationship with the client. How do you guys handle that? How do you handle those situations where. I like what you said, Rob, about you're trying to show them. I guess with your modeling, you could probably draw something and show them like this is what it would look like. Maybe you don't have that as much because you're able to show them.
Angela Liesmaki [00:54:33]:
Go ahead.
Rob Hall [00:54:34]:
I think you're right. Being able to have the 3D model is a good communication tool and is easier than trying to talk through a floor plan of what, what they might want. Because we have to always remember that we're operating in three dimensional spaces for our final products. And so having drawings that are in three dimensionals can solve those questions. But I like your idea of giving them a kind of three chances to, to go the route we're thinking about. But ultimately I agree. It's their house, they're going to be living in it. And we're here to give them something that they'll.
Rob Hall [00:55:13]:
They will love.
Angela Liesmaki [00:55:14]:
Yeah, I think we're. Our goal is to try and show them the volume of space where most of the time they're thinking in two dimensions and we're thinking in the volume of space. And so if we, if they really want to see something that way, we'll show them. But we will also explain why a different way would better suit that particular element or whatever. Part of the design it is, but I think usually that helps guide them back to okay. And I think just making sure they feel like they have trust in us. Right. We want them to feel like the decisions we're making and saying, yeah, I think if you go this route, you're going to love it.
Angela Liesmaki [00:55:50]:
We want them to feel like they can trust us with that and not, you know, when they are in the house say I do love this. Not I told you I would like.
Mark Williams [00:55:57]:
It better than yeah, that's not really the point. Right. I think you're right. I think reassuring them that a you have their best interest in heart. And sometimes I know I have a strong personality. So I'm thinking one in particular recently where I was really zealous about how I like that's a silly example about the fridge. And a homeowner just absolutely would not go for it. And I pushed hard to the hardest I've ever pushed in my career because it was really, really, really bad design.
Mark Williams [00:56:23]:
I'll tell you. They, they wanted the refrigerator. It's all completely white oak kitchen and they have this really unattractive, cheap refrigerator that sticks. Proud of the cabinetry, that has a 2 inch air gap all the way around. And I just about had a heart attack. And I pushed back three or five, six. I way exceeded my rule. And I even got to the point where I said, I will pay for it.
Mark Williams [00:56:42]:
I've never done that before. I said, it means so much to me. I'm thinking, I can't take a photo of this kitchen with this refrigerator. And I was like, I will. And they said no. And they said, if you are going to do that, you'll just screw us some other way. And I, yeah, exactly that. My head did exactly that.
Mark Williams [00:56:58]:
I said, really? I said, if you think that of me, why are you even building with me? And we got through it and I and the designers were there, just, they were like, things got a little heated and really a con. We had a great build, great client. It was just this one hot button for both of us. I was like, I am not putting this in my kitchen, his kitchen. And we did what he wanted. And I just said, I said, Mr. Homeowner. I said, do you want my opinion? And he said no.
Mark Williams [00:57:20]:
And I said, I just want to be really clear. You do not want my, my opinion on, on these matters. You just want me to do what you're saying. I may have made it very clear as a guy to a guy, like, I'm gonna make this so abundantly like bluntly clear that I cannot mistake what he's telling me. He's. I do not want your opinion and I want you to do what I'm telling you to do.
Rob Hall [00:57:38]:
I was like, okay, I think there you just have to document it and then you have to adjust your camera.
Mark Williams [00:57:44]:
No, we did the photo shoot yesterday and I was like, I tried to do the blurry photo thing where you move and I'm like, yeah. The problem is the reflective nature of the refrigerator is so hot on me that it looked even worse. Anyway, it is what it is. I got over it. But anyway, you can relate Photoshop magic. Yeah, just be like, oh, this completely wood kitchen. Actually I haven't talk thought about should I spend the money on this and Photoshop this. But anyway, that was quite the ending.
Mark Williams [00:58:08]:
I always like to end things with a little bit of personal stuff. I really like what people are reading or how they like to learn. And I know know Rob, you're a big podcast guy or I know you like to educate but maybe each share something that either maybe your favorite book over the last year or something you're reading now. Something that a way that inspires you to either be better as a person or be better in your profession.
Angela Liesmaki [00:58:30]:
Yeah, I suppose. I am constantly looking at projects. My mind is always thinking in 3D. I go to sleep thinking in 3D. So I think just seeing visuals and really expanding my mind to what's possible and what's out there. I'm also an artist, so I like to draw. I like like to paint. I actually am getting my little girl into drawing.
Angela Liesmaki [00:58:50]:
So every day we doodle together.
Mark Williams [00:58:52]:
How old is she?
Angela Liesmaki [00:58:53]:
She's almost two.
Mark Williams [00:58:53]:
Okay. How fun.
Angela Liesmaki [00:58:55]:
But I think those kinds of things just always keeping my mind in this design realm really helps me just think creatively and think outside the box. You can go ahead, Rob. I'll think of something I'm reading lately.
Rob Hall [00:59:07]:
Sure, yeah. Just the first book that occurs to me is the one on my nightstand right now. It's called Billionaires Row and it's about the development of the super tall skyscrapers in New York City, which. Which leads to a lot of conflicting feelings for that type of architecture. But very fascinating just hearing the stories. I love reading nonfiction stories about how buildings are built or bridges are built. And so that's one that comes to mind. And then beyond that, just trying to get out in nature is inspirational and so we do that a lot and trying to keep up with seven week old little girl.
Mark Williams [00:59:45]:
Yeah, seven weeks.
Rob Hall [00:59:46]:
Yeah.
Mark Williams [00:59:46]:
Congratulations. That's amazing. What's her name?
Rob Hall [00:59:48]:
Hattie.
Mark Williams [00:59:49]:
Hattie. Aw.
Angela Liesmaki [00:59:50]:
She's sweet.
Mark Williams [00:59:51]:
Yeah. That's amazing. I appreciate both of your times and for those that are looking to reach out to you, we'll have everything on the website. I think it's just jmad.com or jmad.designjmad/design. Okay. We will have that all in the show notes so you don't have to worry. You can just click the little hyperlink and you'll go right there. Thanks again for coming on.
Mark Williams [01:00:09]:
Appreciate your time.
Angela Liesmaki [01:00:09]:
Thank you so much.
Rob Hall [01:00:10]:
Thank you.
Mark Williams [01:00:12]:
Thanks for listening to the Curious Builder podcast. If you like what you listen to, please give us a five star rating and write us a review. It really means a lot. It's a great way for us to just understand what you like about the podcast and what we can keep doing. So can review and please share with your friends and family. Find out more@curiousbuilderpodcast.com.
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